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Wikipedia talk:Protection policy

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Position of lock

Could we revert to how the position of the "pending changes" lock looked before? Now it looks like this, with "Pending" wording next to it with a crossed out eye. The previous lock was a simple compact lock icon with a tick, did not include text or other additional features (like the crossed-out eye) and was less obtrusive and didn't draw as much attention. I'd like to restore the lock to its previous visual format whilst making sure users can still understand its meaning (that there are pending changes, which should already be handled by users pressing "Edit source" and the note coming up). Best, 750h+ 16:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@750h+: I also dislike the change. It's too "busy", the eye icon seems out of place, and it's not visually pleasant. However, this is the wrong place for design feedback. I suggest you start at WP:VPT. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 22:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Will move. 750h+ 23:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can we add Signpost articles as an exception to WP:PREEMPTIVE??

Pre-emptively protecting Signpost articles (to confirmed/autoconfirmed) makes a lot of sense to me because they don't need to be updated post-publication and never really need to be edited except by bots/scripts.

Pinging @Frostly: because they may or may not have an opinion on this topic. Polygnotus (talk) 18:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide several examples of signpost pages that were edited unjustifiably, in order to demonstrate that a problem exists. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC) amended Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On a related note, the current Signpost editor-in-chief has already confirmed/autoconfirmed protected a lot of the past issues, after they were granted administrative privileges. isaacl (talk) 22:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll second Redrose64's request for some examples. We really need to know how often it's a problem before we consider changes to the policy. And even if there's consensus that preemptive protection makes sense, I would want the protections to be automated or done by the Signpost team rather than adding load to WP:RFPP. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 02:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An example or two wouldn't tell you how often it's a problem. Polygnotus (talk) 08:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, which is why I asked for examples (which is open-ended), and not "an example or two" (which is closed). I've inserted the word "several" to clarify this. The more examples that you can provide, the easier it will be for us to observe that a problem exists that needs to be fixed. If it's happening on a daily basis, we probably do need to take action; but if it's only once a year, it should be quite sufficient to ask the person who made the edit to explain it; if not, a simple revert will do.
A general principle, that should be followed by anybody seeking to create a new rule or amend an existing rule, is: can you justify that new rule or amendment in a non-hypothetical form? In other words:
  1. demonstrate that a problem exists
  2. show that existing processes are insufficient to overcome the problem
  3. propose a method that will either solve the problem, or prevent it from re-occurring
  4. invite comments and be prepared to defend your proposal
  5. if sufficient parties are in agreement, implement the proposal
You've come up with (3) and (4), but not (1) or (2). I'm just asking for (1) at this stage. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But its not a new rule, it is exception to an existing rule. And the idea is not to create one but to mention it. Polygnotus (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
New, exception or amendment, the principle is the same: don't mess with the system just because you want to. It applies right to the top - you don't get governments saying "I know, let's pass a law that says that you can't step on the cracks in the pavement", it sounds like they want to control people's lives for the sheer hell of it. No, first they identify the cracks in the pavement as an existing problem (people have been tripping up leading to injury); second, they show that existing processes (sending somebody with cement and a trowel) are insufficient (there is no more cement in the stores); third, they propose a new method (tell everybody not to step on the cracks); fourth, they invite discussion (somebody suggests buying more cement); fifth, they agree that the amended proposal is the better idea even though it costs more. Result: people don't trip up, and feel better about the lawmakers even though their taxes are slightly higher. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since you seem to be very passionate about this rather boring topic, do you have any reasons? Are there any downsides I am not aware of? Do you think new users are likely to try to make improvements to Signpost articles that would be prevented by protection, which would force them to use a template on the associated talkpage, which they won't do for which reasons? I'm not sure I understand that scenario. Oh, and can you provide a list of examples please. I'll tell you when you have enough of them (I won't specify a number but its more than 2). Polygnotus (talk) 10:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you think it's a boring topic, why did you raise it in the first place? Do you have any reasons other than they don't need to be updated post-publication and never really need to be edited except by bots/scripts? If I seem passionate, it's because I am trying to explain why I am not going to approve a policy change on the request of one person, especially when that person refuses to show why the policy as it stands requires any change.
As for Oh, and can you provide a list of examples please. I'll tell you when you have enough of them (I won't specify a number but its more than 2). - are you joking? Do you really want me to provide examples of signpost pages not being edited because nobody felt like vandalising them that day?
I am not the one that is seeking change to an existing policy, it's you. You need to justify your proposal, otherwise it's change for the sake of change; so, you need to explain exactly why. If you put forth reasons why this must be done, I (and others) can consider each point carefully, and offer reasons why that point doesn't stand up. Therefore, it's not my duty to provide examples - it's yours. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was making a point... As a volunteer here, it is not my duty to do anything. This is why we must fork Wikipedia so we can start over with little to no policy and make the same mistakes all over again. It is a cycle all long term online communities go through, from wild west to Kafkaesque (which rhymes if you are a rapper). Do you need citations for that? Polygnotus (talk) 16:26, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Polygnotus, it's standard to request evidence of a problem before changing policy, and Redrose64 has been respectful in doing that. If you're not willing to provide any evidence, then it's unlikely the policy will change.
Also, it's one of Wikipedia's core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner and you're not doing that here. Your last comment is so uncivil that I suggest you reexamine what you've said and consider whether you want to strike it or apologize. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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